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与第一财经Mark Kruger畅谈开放技术标准的应用和未来 – 下篇

与第一财经Mark Kruger畅谈开放技术标准的应用和未来 – 下篇

2021年12月16日 22次秝妤

The Open Group全球EA副总裁兼亚太区总经理Chris Forde先生对话第一财经全球编辑、国际治理创新中心高级研究员Mark Kruger 先生,探讨The Open Group开放技术标准在私营部门和公共领域的广泛应用,及其对可持续发展、数字安全的深远影响。本文将重点发布双方就全球可持续发展及国有企业数字化转型浪潮的观点交流。

 

主讲人

Chris Forde

The Open Group全球EA副总裁兼亚太地区总经理

企业架构师协会(AEA)首席执行官

 

对话人

Mark Kruger

Yicai Global Opinion Editor

Yicai Research Institute Senior Fellow

国际治理创新中心(CIGI)、艾伯塔大学中国学院高级研究员

 

 

 

04全球亟待可持续发展,The Open Group能做些什么?

 

Mark Kruger

全世界每个国家的公共部门和私营部门都在向数字化迈进。当想到这个进程时,人们想到的最大风险之一就是网络风险。那么,The Open Group是否有任何方法可用于帮助缓解网络风险。

 

There’s huge move towards digitalization both public sector and private sector in every country around the world. When you think of that process, one of the biggest risks people think about is cyber risk. So does The Open Group have any approaches that could be used to help mitigate cyber risk.

 

Chris Forde

事实上,The Open Group有很多关于网络安全和风险管理的出版物。需要注意的一点是Open Fair™标准,它主要用于处理信息的事实分析,它真正关注的是当您运行IT基础架构和技术基础架构时,您必须意识到的威胁。你必须对它们进行鉴定,以缓解它们。因此,Open FAIR™是一种评估和管理风险的机制,包括组织的网络安全风险。这可能会让人望而生畏,因为如果你深入理性地研究它,你就会开始意识到你需要掌握的所有统计学知识,这些知识都是用来支持决策的。但这并不意味着这比找律师更令人畏惧,首席财务官也是如何管理网络风险的另一个方面。风险联系人区分“风险机会”和“风险威胁”。这个分组将帮助你判断是否因为机会而需要投资,而不是因为它是一种威胁,而这种威胁可能会突然消失。零风险不是最优的,你会陷入困境。

 

Actually there’s been a number of publications that are on cyber security and risk management. One to the things to look at is the Open FAIR™ standard, which deals with fact analysis for information, which really is looking at when you are running an IT infrastructure and technology infrastructure, you have to be aware of threats. You have to qualify them, to mitigate them. So Open FAIR™ is a mechanism for accessing and managing risk, including cyber security risks for organizations. It could be quite daunting, because if you go into it reasonally deeply, you start to realize all of the statistical knowledge you need to have around, things in order to support decision-making. But that doesn’t mean it’s any more daunting than approaching a lawyer, a chief financial officer is just another dimension of how to manage cyber risk. The risks contact differentiates ‘risks opportunity’ and ‘risks threat’. That set of tiers will help you judge whether you need to invest in something because of an opportunity, verse it is a threat, and that’s something that might get lost all of a sudden. Zero risk is not optimal, you will get stuck in a corner. 

 

Mark Kruger

供应链安全是如今全球各地关注的焦点。最近我读到一篇关于供应链管理的文章,提到洛杉矶的港口急需整理集装箱,解决积压船只的问题。很明显,供应链存在诸多风险,而没有得到很好的预期和准备。The Open Group是否有工具或标准,能够帮助实现供应链安全或优化?

 

Today we're seeing around the world this sort of supply chain backup, I was reading about the harbor in Los Angeles and how just their problem to have sorting up their containers and stuff like that. The amount of ships that are just backlog to. Clearly, this was a risk that was sort of poorly anticipated and poorly provided for. So all around the world, I think people and firms are dealing with the problem of supply chain management. Does The Open Group have any kind of tools or sort of standards that could help alleviate supply chains risk or optimize supply chains?

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Chris Forde

我们有开放可信技术™标准(O-TTPS),该标准旨在通过开发用于识别开放可信技术提供商(Open Trusted Technology Providers™)的开放标准和认证项目,提升产品完整性和供应链安全。这个标准不会直接解决世界上因新冠疫情而面临的物流问题,但它确实与你刚才问到的安全风险、网络风险等问题息息相关。

 

We have The Open Trusted Technology Forum, the standard of which aims to improve product integrity and supply chain security by developing open standards and certification programs for identifying Open Trusted Technology Providers™. This standard will not directly address the logistical problems the world is facing as a result of the pandemic, but it does relate to the security risks, cyber risks, and other issues you just asked about.

 

Mark Kruger
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我认为这是非常有价值的,尤其对于食品供应链安全。有些风险的预防和应对刻不容缓,比如气候变化。在目前的全球气候趋势下,我们不清楚到底会发生什么,但有一点可以确信,如果继续维持现状,将会有一个可怕的结果。这就像一头“灰犀牛”在我们前方,每个人都知道它很糟糕,它就在那里,但我们没有全力以赴来避免或减轻这种风险。

 

I think that's very valuable, especially food safety. So there are risks out there, but there's also threats which are real and sort of incontrovertible. I'm thinking here of climate change. We don't know exactly what's going to happen, but we know if the world goes on the same path as it's been traveling, there's going to be a terrible outcome. In a gray rhino scenario, everybody knows it's bad, it's out there, but perhaps not enough is being done to mitigate this risk.

 

第26届气候大会(COP26)于11月13日落幕,其结果并不尽如人意。国际货币基金组织此前提出,碳税这种给予正确激励以减少碳排放的方式,或许是控制碳排放唯一最有力的工具。这也是欧洲联盟在做的事情,建立一个边界调整机制,以确保实现公平的跨境碳交易。在这方面, The Open Group是否有什么建议、标准或工具,可以帮助企业在低碳环境中生存、制胜?

 

And we've just had that climate summit in Glasgow ended on November 13, and I think it was a little bit disappointing in that countries did not commit themselves to that path that we had established back in Paris of limiting global warming to 1.5°. And I'm hoping one of the things that they consider in that regard is a carbon tax. It's a carbon tax is a way of giving the right incentives to reduce carbon emissions, which the IMF calls the single most powerful tool. This is what the European Union is doing: put on a border adjustment mechanism to make sure that it's sort of fair trading carbon and not an as the level playing field. And I'm wondering, does The Open Group have any advice, any standards or tools that firms and nations could use to do well in a low carbon environment?

 

Chris Forde

2020年8月20日,我们建立了开放环境足迹™论坛( Open Footprint Forum)。The Open Group的各个论坛实际上是集结各方利益共同体的工作坊,就某些特定的问题开展工作。开放环境足迹论坛致力于核算温室气体排放、减少碳足迹、支持净零交付等与低碳环境治理相关的问题。

 

In august 20, 2020, we initiated the Open Footprint™ Forum. Now, a forum for us essentially is a community of interest of parties to work on a particular problem. In this case, OFP deals with the problem of accounting for greenhouse gas emission, in support of the concept of net zero delivery.

 

就像你提到的,环境治理涉及不同辖区、各种类型的商业活动,如何交付给供应链、如何被消费,这其中牵涉到海量的数据。因此,开放环境足迹论坛的使命是为组织和国家提供一个管理碳排放数据的平台,帮助管理者通过一种基于事实和数据导向的方法,来追踪哪些碳消费正在发生。该平台需要许多利益相关者的共同参与才能成功。目前我们的成员组织正在共同发展这一数据平台,及其相关的应用技术,包括数据库、API等,需要许多利益相关者的共同参与才能成功。在不久的将来,它可以在各个管辖区使用。

 

As you mentioned, carbon activities involve different jurisdictions, businesses, different levels of the way things get created, how they delivered to the supply chain, how they consumed. That's a lot of information. So the mission of the Open Footprint Forum is to develop a platform, the provides places for organizations and nations to put information into it that can be analyzed to account for what carbon consumption is occurring and to help manager mitigate that from a well informed data oriented fact based sort of approach to things. It requires participation from many stakeholders to be successful, but that is currently being laid out by our member organizations. The platform would be available across jurisdictions. 

 

Mark Kruger
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欧洲将在2023年开始实施边境调整,届时他们将要求企业披露商品中到底有多少碳被嵌入。在我看来,开放环境足迹论坛将推出的这类产品会有很大的需求。你认为这些产品多久可以问世?

 

My understanding is that the Europeans will start implementing their border adjustment in 2023, so that they'll be asking firms to see exactly how much carbon is embedded in those goods. So seems to me there's going to be great demand for a product like this. What time frame do you think this will be kind of accessible?

 

Chris Forde

围绕开放环境足迹论坛的可行产品的初始版本,预计在未来18个月内可以看到。

 

The initial releases of what we've just been discussing around the open footprint stuff. I would expect to see something within the next 18 months.

 

Mark Kruger
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太棒了!现如今,气候变化可能是一个令人沮丧的话题,让我们聊一聊更鼓舞人心的事情:5G技术,它将带来各种可能性。5G是一种让机器与机器对话的技术,这将为自动化提供更大的机会。你可以想象,当机器开始与机器对话时,自动化程度可能会呈指数级增长。你对工业自动化怎么看?哪些过程应该自动化,哪些应该维持现状?

 

That sounds very good. So climate change is a pretty depressing topic so let's think about something a bit more optimistic: a technology that gives us all kinds of great opportunities. It is a type of technology that will enable machines to talk to machines. This provides for a greater opportunity for automation. What do you think about industrial automation? Which processes should be automated and which are best left behind?

 

Chris Forde

这是一个有趣的问题。谈到自动化,有些人可能会有种狂热的想法:“万物皆可自动化”。如果你试图在一个以盈利为目的的公司中这样做,你可能没有真正优化你的投资。但是,如果你是在制药企业或是食品和饮料制造企业,生产过程是连续的,并与供应链相互作用,这就涉及过程自动化。

 

It's an interesting question. When you're talking to people, there can be this kind of frenzied approach to, let's automate everything. But if you're trying to do that in a company that's running on a for profit basis, you're really not optimizing your investment, right? But if you were in the business of producing uh medicines, particularly in this period of time, right? Or you're in the business of producing food and beverage, your running systems that are ongoing basis are interacting with each other, interacting with your supply chain.

 

2016年,The Open Group成立开放流程自动化™论坛,它是一个由最终用户、供应商、系统集成商、标准组织和学术界达成共识的团体,致力于解决流程自动化的技术和商业问题,帮助组织摆脱专有、单一来源的流程解决方案。论坛根据不断更新的技术、更新的能力迅速做出调整,其标准也在不断迭代改进。同样,我们称之为可执行的标准。论坛的产物不仅仅是一份文件,而是在技术和现实世界中实际发挥作用的东西。

 

 In 2016, The Open Group established a forum called The Open Process Automation™ Forum. It is a consensus-based group of end users, suppliers, system integrators, standards organizations, and academia. It addresses both technical and business issues for process automation, helping organizations to move away from proprietary single source solutions for processes to make them more open so that these organizations and their customers get the benefit of new open technologies. And they'll be rapidly adjusting to demands on them for newer technologies, newer capabilities, and that open standard for the open process automation is now being worked on to later versions to improve. And as again, what we would call it executable standards, that's just about the paper. It's about what is actually in play in the technical and real world.

 

05数字时代,The Open Group如何与中国并肩前行

 

Mark Kruger

令人期待!让我们谈一谈中国。中国经济发展迅速,技术创新大有赶超之势,在专利方面成为世界领导者之一。我们可以想象,中国将在国际舞台扮演更重要的角色,制定一些通用标准。在制定标准方面,你对中国有什么建议?中国应该如何去制定国际标准并让它们被广泛接受?

 

That's great. Let's talk a bit about China. So the Chinese economy is developing very quick, and China is moving towards that kind of technological frontier. And a lot of innovation is going on here in there. One of the world leaders now in patents, for example. So one would imagine that as China progresses, they will play a greater part in the international stage, and set some of these standards. So what advice would you have for China in terms of setting standards? How they should go about setting international standards and getting them accepted?

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Chris Forde

我认为像中国这样的国家已经很好地参与了国际标准的制定,包括ISO和其他标准。从 The Open Group的角度来看,我们已经有总部设在中国的组织与我们合作,以获得参与制定国际标准的机会。

 

I think a country like China is already well involved in international standard setting with ISO and others. What I can say is that from The Open Group's perspective, we already have Chinese headquartered organizations working with us on getting access to international standards. What we're trying to do is localize our materials to make it available broadly in China in local language. And the benefit of that will be that as people can more broadly interpret and look at and generate ideas around the standards and reference models and reference architectures, they can start to say there's a way to improve that.

 

我们试图做的是将我们的标准本地化,使其在中国以当地语言广泛使用。这样做的好处是,当人们能够更广泛地解读、审视并生产围绕标准、参考模型和参考架构的想法时,他们可以进一步改进它们。而改善它的最佳途径之一就是参与The Open Group。我们为中国的组织和组织代表敞开大门,让他们与全球的业界同好合作交流,不仅去影响标准,并且能够制定标准。

 

And the path to improve it is my participation. The door should be open for Chinese organizations and representatives to participate with The Open Group and others in not only influencing standards, but laying them out in the first place. 

 

Mark Kruger

可否分享您对The Open Group的愿景无边界信息流™的看法,以及它是否和时下热议的网络安全法、数据安全法和个人信息保护法相关?

 

Now, what can you tell me about The Open Group's vision for Boundaryless Information Flow™ and the extent to which may or may or may not be compatible with the cyber security law, the data security law, and the personal Information protection law?

 

Chris Forde

这是个好问题。The Open Group的愿景:实现无边界信息流™,是以一种安全、可靠、及时的方式推动无限制的信息流动。这意味着你需要可渗透的信息边界来支持创新,但要以安全的方式。我认为这与《中华人民共和国个人信息保护法》和《中华人民共和国国家安全法》,以及美国政府将逐步部署的法律法规非常一致。

 

That's a great question. There's a couple of qualifies on that tagline from The Open Group: it's Boundaryless Information Flow™ in a secure and reliable manner. What that means is that you want permeable information boundaries to support innovation, but in a secure manner. I think the vision is very consistent with China’s PIP Law and the security law, with the European Union’s General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), and with American government regulation to be deployed over time.

 

Mark Kruger
中国的国有资产管理部门正在要求国有企业发挥杠杆作用,实现数字化。对此,你会给他们什么建议?图片
 

Now I have read that the state owned asset administration is asking that state owned enterprises leverage, digitize digitalization. So what advice would you give them here?

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Chris Forde

这将是一个相当长的旅程。在中国,已经有一些国有企业走上数字化转型这条道路。其中一个典型的例子是中国航空工业集团公司,他们取得了显著的数字化进展。在数字化方面,中国本土已经有商业模式可以借鉴。我希望各组织不仅要关注各自的行业,还要关注在其他行业和其他组织中有效的模式,并思考如何利用它们来定位价值所在,找到特定路径。这种正交的观点可以打开你的思路,不仅是其他人已经做了什么,而且是我们可以做什么,是其他人没有做过的。超越当前的思维或公认的做法,是实现创新的一个关键步骤。

 

There’s quite a journey to be had there. There are examples of SOEs here in China already that have been down that road. One of them is AVIC the Aviation Industry Corporation of China. They made remarkable progress in digitalization in that path. There are models to be seen. What I would encourage is that organizations not just look inside their own industry but to look at models that have worked in other industries and in other organizations and say, what of that could we make use of to locate where the value is or a particular way of doing things. This orthogonal view can open people’s mind to not only what other people have done, but to what we could do, to what nobody else has done. This is a very important step that is leaping beyond what is current thinking or accepted practice to innovation.

 

Mark Kruger
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谢谢Chris,这是一次引人入胜的对话,我受益良多。我想收看这次节目的观众也会有很多收获!

 

Thanks Chris. It's been a fascinating conversation. I've certainly learned a lot. I think everybody out there watching this program has too.

 

Chris Forde

谢谢Mark做客我的对话!期待下次再见!

 

Thanks Mark for talking with me today. See you next time!